Innovation in property Industry with Leonie Freeman

In this episode of The Property Collective Podcast, we are joined by Leonie Freeman, CEO of Property Council New Zealand, to discuss her insights into innovation in the property industry. 

Throughout her career, Leonie paved the way for subsequent tech companies and opened the door to a new reality for how property might be bought or sold. 

Leonie provides incredible insight into some pretty special proptech history.

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Transcript

Stacey: 0:55

Kia Ora Koutou and welcome to the property collective podcast brought to you by Relab. I'm your host, Stacy Fairclough, content manager here at Relab. And today I'll be joined by my cohost Knight Hou CEO and co-founder of Relab. In today's episode, we are privileged to be joined by the formidable Leonie Freeman from the property council. Leonie sure knows a thing or two about PropTech and innovation and the property space. As one of the OG's in the PropTech world, Leonie paved the way for subsequent tech companies and opened the door to a new reality for how property might be bought and sold. We are thrilled to have Leonie on the show today and can't wait to jump in. Let's get started. Leonie's gonna talk a bit to her background and what she does in the property industry. And then we'll go into what's happening in the property industry at the moment and how innovation plays quite a big role. To kick off, Leon, thank you so much for coming on with us today. Can you tell us a bit about your background and what you do in your role as CEO of property Council?

Leonie: 2:01

Sure. And, and thanks very much for the invite. It's great to be here. And, for those there might not be aware, but, you guys presented at our property council conference in our innovations showcased recently, which we really, really appreciated and actually won the innovation showcase. So that was. So just a little bit about me. I've spent my whole career in property, which when I actually look back and add up some of the years, it's just over 30 years now, which is a bit scary. I originally trained as a, as a property valuer. And that was quite a good background but I also always had an interest in technology. And early in my career I was, involved in sort of valuation, but also setting up computer systems for companies and, you know, figuring out how we could use technology. And then after I'd done an oe I sort of came back and I thought, Right, I really wanna focus on the areas that really interest me, rather than straight valuation. And I started working for myself. And so I focused on technology, education, and research. And I suppose at that stage of my career, I wanted to, you know, I was always asking the questions around, you know, how could things be different or better? And, you know, it's all about questioning the unquestion. So some of the first things I did there was back in 1995, I started looking at the internet and seeing what impact that would have in the real estate industry. And as an, as a bit of an example of, major disruption because, probably many won't, won't understand what it used to be like back then. But before you could go online and search for what you needed for a house to rent or buy, you actually had to go through all these really. Thick magazines, page by page cuz they weren't organized in any logic. And I thought it was really important that the industry had this one opportunity to actually own and control effectively the newspaper of the future. So, I was the one behind the launch of Reland in August, 1996, which actually has just celebrated 25 years and now is known as real estate dot. After doing that, I learned a lot and I then looked at some other business opportunities and, I ended up buying a rundown property management company. And not cause I was an expert in property management, but I saw again, an opportunity that if you bought the technology in, with the property management, which was like stepping back 20 years, you could create a really good business and create something with value. So did that, sold that in 2000 and. And, after that and since then I've really been focused a bit more on contribution and making a difference. And I was trying to look at how do you bring those sort of private sector entrepreneurial business skills into the public sector. So I was really involved with the setup of the new Super city in Auckland. Was brought into Housing New Zealand in 2014 to leave the turnaround of the development program. So I've done sort of things like that. So it sort of gave me quite a different perspective. And when you're an entrepreneur and private sector focus, the public sector is very. And then in 2016, cause I've done a huge amount in, in, housing I launched a housing solution to solve housing crisis as a way of trying to show some leadership in this space. And got very much the same reaction as I did when I did, Reland 25 years ago. Everyone said, Oh yeah, you're crazy. Nobody can fix housing. But actually we can. We just, we just have to look at it in a completely different way. And then I, I did that for a while and I was approached three years ago, three and a half years ago, about the role property council and. Property council for those that aren't familiar with it, is the membership organization that represents the whole property sector. So it's everybody from owners, developers, uh, property managers, you know, and all the associated professional services. So it's quite extensive and it's across commercial, residential, retail, and Industrial and I actually haven't had a job since I was 28, so I've always worked for myself. So the thought of having a job was quite a change for me. But I took it for two reasons and they're both very purpose driven. One was around, we've got some big problems in property in New Zealand. Housing is obviously the one that gets the most focused, but there are plenty of others. And, we as an industry, we need to take a much bigger leadership role in fixing it. And I thought this is a good place to do it. And the other reason was I spent 30 years in property and I, and I've done just about every part of it and I love it but there's not a lot of women at a senior level. And I really wanna shift the diversity and inclusion dimension in property. And I want that to be a bit of a legacy. So that's sort of in a bit of a nutshell, it's been quite mixed. It's not the traditional career path. And done some very different.

Stacey: 6:28

Yeah, I think that's what makes it so good and interesting though, is, is all the diversity. Doing a bit of research in today's webinar, I know, in our property council's had a lot to do with this, is I've realized how big the property industry is. Just a few stats for the audience. The property industry makes. 15% of economic activity, 9% of the workforce, and currently counting, 41.2 billion in gdp. Gdp, which is. I can't even tell. I'm big, better No mind. With these large numbers in mind, there are, there is a lot of pressure going on in, in the industry. We see a massive amount of demand whil, the supplies under a lot of stress, like, increasing prices, sort of materials, the time it takes to. And there's so many factors that are contributing to this, to this strain. What are the top three challenges you see in the industry at the moment?

Leonie: 7:32

Yeah, there's, there's a lot of challenges in the industry and there they, there are different ones in different sectors, so obviously if you take housing, housing is the one that gets the most oxygen, that, that affects just about everyone. So we've got major issues in housing and the one that you probably don't hear about the most, which I think is actually the starting point, is the whole ecosystem around housing isn't working. It's quite broken, it's very siloed and, there's. Way at the moment where you can actually bring everybody together to solve the problem. So because what you tend to hear is the, in the media is look at the rma, or it's consenting or it's, lack of capability in the construction sector, or it's material supply, or it's zoning or, you know, and, and the list goes. And so it is all of those other things as well, but you can't just fix one of them in isolation. That's why I think this overall systems approach to housing is really important. Then we have a whole lot of these sort of functional issues which are causing us challenges. Then there is one around innovation and how do we actually bring innovation in Cause there's lots of great ideas, but it's really hard to bring it. And then the last one, I think is, is a societal thing where we have a real challenge around, people and change. And most people don't like change, therefore they don't like new housing and new developments. And so we, how do we take our communities on this journey? We, we are going through this change so that at the end of it all, it's not just about more housing. We wanna build really, really good communities. and cities in New Zealand because, you know, housing is often at the heart of really strong communities. It's, so it's sort of how do we deal with all of these issues and, and deal with them together.

Stacey: 9:20

Yeah, interestingly, last week on the new housing density roles, and it's funny you talk about, resistance to changes. There was quite like, there was a lot of different commentary behind that and I think ties into the resistance to change. You see in the, definitely the community.

Leonie: 9:39

And often if you look at just something like that really quickly, you know, people look at it and in principle, we, we support the, the density cuz if we, you know, to get more affordable housing, we do need to get a bit denser. But what we've gotta tie in with the, the density is we've gotta tie in really good design and making sure the community facilities. Support it. And that's, that's the key. It's this sort of bigger picture, not just thinking, Oh, we've just gotta build lots more housing. We've actually, what we wanna do is we wanna build homes rather than houses. And we wanna build really strong communities and positive communities, for, for New Zealanders.

Stacey: 10:14

And what role do you see innovation playing in that space?

Leonie: 10:19

Yeah, I think innovation is, is quite critical Because innovation across a whole, you know, has such an impact, whether it's in business, whether it's in society, whether it's, you know, the actual technology advancements. And most people often associate innovation just with technology. And there's a lot of really good technology stuff going on. And, you know, the likes of what you guys are doing is one of them with, with data and how do we better use data and understand it? And we know, you know, the advancements in technology around big data. But then it's about how can we use that data? For better, You know, how how do we use it for, around things like smart cities and, and tying in with data and smart cities and therefore getting better outcomes for our, for our communities. So the, the data and the, and that technology site is a, is a big thing. And it's, you know, it's great to be, to be watching it. Cuz I said it's 25 years ago since we launched Real Lens, you know, which at the time so out there and you know, when we launched in 1996, it was actually the first major commercial website launched in New Zealand, you know, and, and lots of people used to say to me, Leon, no one's ever gonna buy property this way. What the heck are you doing? But it just shows that things change and I know they will continue to change. So, so the data, I think, is an absolute critical one. Then I look at different parts of property. So, you know, construction is one often people hear about, and there's a lot of innovation going on in that space. And you'll sometimes see things like 3D printed houses or office blocks, or you'll see You know, the automated brick layers who can come in and do stuff. And so there is a lot of really smart innovation in the space and also around materials. And I've worked with some of these organizations over the years and the biggest challenge for them is I actually think there's amazing amount of innovation out there and some really good stuff going on in New Zealand. But then they come across the, the sort of the barriers of our legislative and consenting framework and how difficult it is to actually bring any of these new, concepts, designs, all that sort of stuff to actually comply with our legislative framework and also our consenting f. And I remember a few years ago when I was doing a lot in the housing space and a, and a guy rang up and he said he only, I, I've worked for three years, you know, to develop some, product and this will enable construction of houses to be at half the price. And he'd invested a whole lot of money and spent three years and he'd managed to get through the legislative framework. Then some part through the consenting framework, but, but he just could not get the adoption of it by the councils. And and in the end he said to me, I, I'm gonna have to give up and go back to my traditional build. And so we've gotta think, you know, when I think about innovation, we've gotta think about how do we get it adopted? And one of the things I think we really, as a, as a sector need to think about is almost having an innovation, innovation hub, sort of, that starts right at the beginning where you can test a whole lot of the stuff and then it becomes adopted as an industry rather than relying on every single builder or developer to have to test new things. Cause it's just too expensive and too time consum from another perspective and property where I know a lot of people are thinking at the moment is the impact. Technology on and, and societal change on workspaces. So if you think about, say for example, office premises and, you then look at how we use them now. So it's gone from years back where it was traditional and everybody came into an office and. Now it's a lot more flexible and you know, you tend to have a lot of hot desking and it's open plan and all that sort of stuff. There's a huge amount of technology going into efficiency of buildings and being able to monitor things from a sustainability perspective. So it's quite exciting what we are seeing in that, and particularly what we're seeing overseas that will come. Then, then you look at things like the retail side and you've got online versus, you know, traditional going to a shop. And then if you, if anyone's been to some of the shopping centers, you know, you can see that the concept of shopping centers has changed dramatically from traditional just going and buy something to actually more experiential. So this is a lot of the innovation that you are seeing that's coming. You're seeing the whole cars and car parking and drones and, you know, all that sort of stuff is gonna come and have a bigger impact. You then look at financing. So financing is such a big thing in property cuz we don't have, finance, can't do anything. And you're seeing where people, you know, smaller people can have some sort of, Investment opportunity, whether it's share these or Jasper or things like that. I also think banking's gonna be disrupted. You know, you've only gotta see what's happening in that space. And then like I said before, you know, we've got some systemic problems. So how do we get the whole property development process working much better efficiently and more cost effective? Then we've also got that innovation because we've got this whole societal change, driving change, whether it's more purpose driven, more sustainability, climate change, all that sort of stuff. So it's like there's a whole plethora of innovation that's happening in our industry, which is quite exciting. But I also really wanna try and figure out how do we, how do we capture it and then use it so we benefit because I've just seen so much happen and then it just doesn't filter through. And that's quite.

Stacey: 15:43

Yeah, There's a question that might tie well into the trouble with consent why are we not supporting more modular house building as in Europe?

Leonie: 15:51

Yes. And so again, that's another one of the things that we need to address and it's a, it's an absolute critical thing. And so one of the challenges with modular housing is that yes, it all makes sense. It's sort of getting more acceptance now in terms of being able to get through some Ken consenting Cause that was a real challenge in the early days, both to comply with the legislation framework. And then you see each council has their. Standards. So for example, if you're in Christchurch, you can drive 20 minutes and you are dealing with three different councils with three different consenting requirements. So you can start to see, it's quite hard to sort of get some of these approvals in place. So that was part of it, and that's, that is making progress. The second thing is that, Modular housing doesn't get, it's harder to get finance. So you know, when you, if you build a house and it's being built on site, you get, the bank will give you money as progress payments. The bank don't like it if you've got a house being built in a factory cuz it's not on the land and they haven't got security. So that's another sort of issue. We've got a, um, address and then it's also about scale. So modular you need. And so part of the challenge is to get scale here, to make the at work. And also this becomes sort of a little bit of a, of a Kiwi thing. A lot of Kiwis don't like standardized housing. They want, they, they want their own. So but modular is definitely, one of the key things. But again, it's just a sort of a, it's a classic example of some of the barriers. That Cause you sit back and think shit, this is really good and makes a lot of sense. But it's just an example of so many of the barriers that you find in trying to implement it. Yeah. As you mentioned before, there was the property conference not too long ago do you have any examples of companies actually trying to solve these problems just through innovation? Yeah, look, I think there's there's a lot going on. So you, you can look at some of the places where, say for example, Mike Greer homes have actually built concision, you know, which is a, a factory where they build the houses in the factory premises. So, you know, there's, there's a lot going on in that space. I mean, I've seen stuff where there's, you're starting to see some 3D printing going on I still think it's not at a scale yet. That is, is really having that much of an impact and there is quite a bit going on in the modular space as well. But, but we also have to think about the sort of the construction model and how we actually, you know, have our traditional builders and how that whole business model works and how do we change that. And the other thing is if you, you know, back to our modular thing I, I've seen some examples where you've had some modular companies building houses and they're fantastic in the factory, but you still have to deal with all the challenges to then get it on site. So that's everything from, you know, the resource planning and the consenting and then getting it on site. And then you've still gotta get all the approvals and then you've still gotta get all the the sort of water and everything hopped up. So the modular bit is fantastic, but there's still some challenges on that wider thing. Yeah, we, we have got some, you know, there's a lot of space for improvement yet to go. Yeah. And Knight. I have a quick question for you. In the data space, how does play a role in the innovation area?

Knight: 19:14

Leonie, great to have you on. Thanks Stacy. Yes, as you touched on, Relab, We are a startup, and we specialize in providing data and insight, all in one place for property professionals. Yes, data does play, a big role because without data you can't really make good decisions. And I was just taking some notes when Leon was talking. I like to just maybe share our experience as a little startup. We started back in 2016 and back then there was no homes or one roof. None of the other site actually existed. Mean real estate dot co was definitely there, But we done the site, just thinking, Hey, we can see more data become available. How do we bring the data all in one place? So we build a site and people started using Relab, to. Look up school zones to find out valuation, to find out how many bedrooms and bathrooms etcetera. And the name behind lab and it's quite a obscure name it actually stands for real estate. R e and Lab is our aspiration to dig deep into data and provide more analytics and more insights to our users. But the, the penny drop moment for us was, we actually asked our question, What problem are we actually solving for our users? And it was pretty hard. Not easy, and the way we did it is we just went out and interviewed. Our perspective users, they're all property professionals. Some of them are architect surveyors valuers, real estate agent excetera. Just asked them, what's your number one pain point in your day to day job? What's a problem that's paying for, takes your time that you like to change? And many, many of them come back to say that, to do initial due diligence or research on a site, they have to jump. 6, 7, 8, 10 different systems and half of them, you can't use them, are mobile. So that's how we went. Ha That's what we can do By bringing everything into one platform, it's accurate, it is timely, it's professional. So, that's I guess our little transformation. I absolutely agree with everything you said, Leonie, regarding innovation is not just technology. Innovation can take place in any field that you want to improve on. It could be customer service. Yeah. It could be changing a different brand message to try out whether they engage with your audience, but you can be data and insight. That's definitely our aspiration is to continue hone in our data skills, but it needs to be customer based. We need to not lose sight of what our customers want from us and keep building product that tick a box off for them.

Leonie: 21:54

And I think too, just a huge credit to you guys because I, I think sometimes what people, what, what I've noticed over the years and, and, you know, been around for a bit longer is, When something becomes really obvious, then everyone says, Oh, that was really obvious. But they don't realize how hard it actually is when you launch a startup. And, you know, I imagine for you as it was for us back, back in the day, you know, it's a huge rollercoaster ride. And that's why I've often you, you know, if you wanna change something, I actually do use the example of real estate.co sometimes now because everybody looks at it today. You know, particularly younger ones, they couldn't imagine doing it any other way. But back in 1995, people thought I was completely crazy and they used to tell me that I got laughed at a meetings. I was told I was crazy. Some of the wise heads in the real estate industry said to me, Leoni, nobody will ever by property this way. And, you know, so a lot of it is, is about perseverance and sort of keeping with it sometimes and making, you know, understanding what's, what's driving you. Because those early years are pretty tough and so, you know, just wanted to extend my Huge recognition of that. Cause I know that, that they are tough times and I'm sure people will say to you sometimes now, Oh well, you know, that was a really obvious idea, but it's still difficult to get there.

Stacey: 23:15

Yeah for both your and Leonie, I, I guess you kind of touched a bit on this just now, Leonie but, what are your advice do you have for property professionals? Definitely in terms of, resilience and trying to solve these problems with all the hurdles that they have.

Leonie: 23:31

Yeah. So I think that, when I think about that, there are always times of change and challenge, and we all know, look, the, the last couple of years have been a tough time. But if you think about Einstein, you know, he says that in the midst of every crisis comes opportunity. So, sometimes at the back of my mind I try and try and do that. One of the things that's always really important to me is, as you probably gathered, I. Followed a traditional career path as such, but I've been very purpose driven and. To be clear on what's, what's my why? So what's driving me for each of the projects that I'm doing? Because if you are in those really tough times, as you were alluding to before, sometimes that purpose is the only thing that keeps you going. And I've had some of those times as well with, with different businesses and you're thinking, What the heck am I doing? You know? And but if you're clear on what your purpose is, that can get you through that. Cause sometimes you've just gotta keep. And I think also it's about a little bit of perspective as well. I, I often talk to my team, you know, I often start about what, what are we grateful for? And, you know, I talk to the team and, you know, we all have got places to live. Friends and family are generally okay. You know, we've got enough to eat, we've got good health, all that sort of stuff. Sometimes it's about perspective and then the challenge that's around it. Then I think it's also about, you know, finding your support networks around friends and family. Business support, you know, whether that's mentoring or just having someone to be able to talk to, obviously health, you know, looking after yourself and finding ways to do that. I think that is also really important. And then realizing, you know, we all wanna control things and. But we can't control everything. So understand what you can control and then do something about it and, and perhaps release some of the things that you can't control. Doesn't mean we all have to be in the state of depression. Doesn't mean sometimes we're not down about it. But, it's sort of like realizing that we've just gotta get through this. And I sometimes think resilience is a bit like building a muscle. That some tough times that you've gone through when you reflect back, you might think, Jesus, I wish I didn't have to go through that. But you know, it does really strengthen you and it makes it easier for the next time to have those, those times. So look at resilience as a bit of a muscle to build

Knight: 25:53

can I just, quickly tag onto what you said in terms of the question was how do we deal with resilient to make sure, you know, personally we're doing well, our family are doing well, and our, our colleagues are doing well. I think network is super important. At times you could feel this is just a hard grind. Is it just for other, other people out there? And how do I reach out to them so that we can share success recipes. And then I kind of extend the thinking to think about innovation. Do we all have to try very hard to innovate, innovate in our own field, or can we have more, collaboration with. People in the wider community, whether there are supplies, whether there are customers. I really love your idea around some sort of innovation hub in Innovation Center. And we, we are a small startup, a tech startup, and we're part of the Ice House community, which is, the startup. I think you're very familiar with Ice House, you, so I don't know, just think out loud. Would it be great if we have the icehouse or the incubator center or the innovation. For the property industry, where is Yeah. Right.

Leonie: 27:03

Absolutely. And I think you're totally right because one of the things I think I often think about innovation is cause people, if someone said to me, say, How do you come up with these ideas? Sometimes before other people see them. And, it's not you. You often don't have eureka moments. I often say if you've ever looked at your blood underneath the microscope, you know, you've got all these sort of circles that are moving around. And I often think it's about creating some, some networks of people where you might bounce into them and I've got a half baked idea and you've got a half baked idea. But together. You know, we come up with something quite special and that could be, you know, really quite clever. And so I think that, you know, I often say to people, you wanna create your own sort of smaller hubs around innovation and get people around you. They don't have to be in the same sector, but are open to cheering some crazy ideas and, and maybe questioning. Thinking in a different way and turning upside down. So I think at a personal level, I recommend everyone does that, but at a sector level, you are absolutely right. And that's why I think the Ice House has been so strong. And, and had such a big impact on so many businesses because it sort of is a, a place where people can go and like-minded and as a, you know, support and infrastructure. And I, I think if we could do that in property somehow, that would help in so many different ways to help sort of bring a, a very fragmented sector together to help resolve some of the bigger issue

Knight: 28:32

spotted a question I'm just gonna read out loud cuz I think this is super relevant to what we're talking about here, Stacy, if that's okay. And the only, so this questions from James. As a land development engineer, I'm finding there is a lot of changes coming in the three water space and land form design, especially with regards to sustainable urban design, better community outcomes. Unfortunately, there's no model or standard for councils to assess those or for us engineers design too. We have to, pioneer change with brave developers and planners. And I guess the, the undertone there is James, is the risks and costs that comes with the pioneering changes. So, Leonie, what's your perspective on James's comment?

Leonie: 29:13

Yeah, and, and look, he's right. And, and I think there's a lot of change going on at the moment in the legislative framework space. So, you know, we've seen a bit lately around three waters. There's the Resource Management Act, there's the National Policy Statement on urban development. There's, and I just lose track of all the other bits of legislation we're working on. What worries me with what's going on at the moment is there is so much change. Because at Property Council we are, we sort of represent the industry and a lot of these topics. And what worries me, because we are a sort of the central point is that I don't see a lot of coordination between much of the legislation happening at a Central government or a local government level. And, so James is absolutely right because if you don't have that coordination, then when you're trying to apply it, can create a whole lot of problems and unintended consequences, which cause more time and cost more money. One of the things, and I'm not sure it's working yet, but the, what we are trying is to say, with all these bits of legislation, we're trying to get government more connected. What we're also saying is that before they pass any legislation, that we roadtest it because it's easy. If you are sitting in Wellington and writing policy or, or, or some legal, you know, documents, you are not the one that's got to actually apply it. And so what we are trying to encourage them is that, When they think they've got the framework of the legislation, then actually come and test it with us and, and you know, a range of our members like James from an engineering perspective and many others who can say, Okay, how's this actually going to work in practice? And what is it going to mean? And, because I'm really concerned that, you know, a lot of this is designed to try and create more affordable housing and speed the process up, but I actually think it runs the risk of being the opposite. And then I look at, you know, three waters, which is, you know, there's a lot of change happening in that. And we know in the last 18 months, because of a definition of wetlands, Which basically meant ended up being every, every bit of a creek or you know, bit of water in somebody's paddock ended up being a wetland. And that often developed delayed developments by a long time. So, We've gotta try and make sure that when we bring this stuff in, that there are the models that James is talking about, that we've actually tested it and we know how it's going to operate before it is passed and bought into, you know, actual being. And because at the moment I see a big disconnection between the people who were develop. Legislation and policy and the rest of us who are having to implement. And we, and, and so I suppose that comes back to my whole system approach. We've gotta get so much smarter in how we do this stuff. And, You know, I know a lot of people that deal with, central or local government often find it quite frustrating. And it can be, and trust me, I've had some very challenging times, but I fundamentally believe one of the innovations to solve some of our bigger problems has to be that we all have to work together. Public sector, private sector, iwi, community housing sector, the finance community, if we wanna solve some of these things. And we've just gotta get a lot smarter. And like you said, that's the way that we can pioneer some of the stuff and, and make it happen. So, you know, I'm always trying to be on the hopeful side and advocating for positive change. But there are some big challenges.

Knight: 32:32

I agree a hundred percent Leon and I think of the space we're in. We're a technology startup and I've been quite fortunate enough to be mentored by a great, Kiwi global entrepreneur, and I remember how she phrased, growth innovation for us entrepreneurs and startup founders. The way she put it is simple in terms of, if you look at all the businesses in New Zealand or globally, you have a lot of small to medium businesses, SMEs or soul traders. On one end of scale, you have a lot of large corporate. On the other end of scale and, and their motors operating, they are different. You know, for SMEs it's about cash flow. Today, can I pay my employees and myself today so they care about cash flow For larger companies with boards and governance structures, they care about risk. How do we make sure we comply, we're compliant and the risks? And they're talking about the, you know, 10 year plan. There is a big gap in the middle, which. Innovation or growth companies. Yeah. Who you need to be brave enough,you know, pushing the boundaries at the same time, making sure you mitigate your potential risk. But growth and innovation should take priority, I guess. Cuz you're always looking at risk adverse. You might as well just have no change. So love the, And there are parallels because in terms of stakeholders, councils, They are a hundred percent mandated to look at risks and compliance versus, you know, our innovative, land development engineer here. He's trying to push the boundaries and look at how do I do things better, quicker? Yeah. The better outcome. So how do we meet in the middle and be the change? Yes. If you want to see the change be the change you want to.

Leonie: 34:15

That's all my hearty and you're absolutely right. It is, you know, it is about how do we, how do we come together? And, and I often used to look at it and think, the, the private sector, look at the public sector and think, they take a long time and don't make any decisions. And the public seek to look at the private sector and think, the private sector is just about making. And I've often used the analogy of I dunno if people remember a book from years ago. It was called Men Are From Mars, a Woman Are from Venus. And I've often thought we should have a new book called The Public Sector from Mars and the private sector from Venus. But at the end of the day, whilst we might sort of come from quite different planets, if we need to make things work, we've actually gotta get married, you know, and, and sort of come together and, you know, like, like marriage. You don't have to be exactly the same, but it's about sharing some values and also the more we can understand each other and, and walk in each other's shoots. Cause having spent a bit of time in the public sector for someone like me, it's a bit strange, but there are some challenges that you certainly don't have in the private. And it's driven, like you said, on by different drivers. But, and then you come back to the private sector and obviously we, we are driven by different drivers as well, but at the, you know, we've gotta find a way to build these really trust, trusted partnerships and relationships where, you know, we are trying to work together. And one of the things Property Council launched a couple of years ago, it's been a bit hard during Covid this last year, but. You can either get frustrated with each other or you can try and do something about it. So we launched what we call Development Essentials. And it was, it's about training and it's a, for the decision makers from, you know, politicians and ministers through to government officials involved in property and just. You know, giving them the basics about how development actually works. Because it's a very, it's quite a long, extensive and quite complex process and, a lot of people that don't understand the development process think it's just about when you build something on the site, not realizing that actually. The bulk of the work, is before you even start construction on a site. And so we are try, you know, I've been trying to shift property council to. Two major shifts. One is around. For the, the, the public sector. We're trying to be seen not as advocates, but as trusted advisors and, you know, so that we can help them, in the process they're going to. And then the second one where we are trying to shift it is sometimes people are the public associates, you know, property owners or, or many of our guys. Grit, grubby developers or property fat cats and, rather than actually really important contributors. Cause as you, Stacy, you touched on at the start, you know, we contribute 15% of GDP to New Zealand and employee over 200,000 people. So it's a really important contributor to New Zealand and we, and I'm trying to sort of shift it to say we are, you know, we are really important contributors. Not, it's not just all about us. Cause the vast majority of people in our sector are very, very purpose. And want to create, you know, communities and or buildings or whatever they do, you know, in a really positive way.

Stacey: 37:15

Yeah. I think you're spot on with private and public needing to, to marry out that. Yeah, I can see that's often the pain points that people talk about. Especially with development, et cetera. Thank you Leone for coming on. Yeah, we really appreciate

Leonie: 37:32

it. No problem and always happy to help and look, I, I'm really passionate about, obviously property as you can gather and change and innovation and stuff. For the better. So I love talking about this stuff and I hope it sort of gives somebody a taste of something that they might go do something positive cause, because when it needs all of us, in our own ways making change. to improve things for, for everybody. And, I often think there's a lot of people who, I call them energy zappers or a bit negative or that, that they, I I, I call them the people that start with no. And I'm sure you know those people but we need the people with the ideas and the positiveness and the drive and the resilience to actually. Real positive change. So I, I love talking about the stuff, so anytime I'm more than happy.

Stacey: 38:20

Yes, you're so right. We definitely do need those positive change makers. That's for sure. Thanks so much for joining us today. Leonie, your insights are truly inspiring. And that's a wrap. Thanks to my cohost Knight Hou and my guest today, Leonie Freeman from the property council. What an incredible insight into some pretty special proptech history. Thanks so much for tuning in. Mā te wā.