How Simplicity Living aims to tackle New Zealand's housing market with Sam Stubbs

Simplicity's Co-founder and Managing Director, Sam Stubbs, takes the Relab team through the purpose and drive behind Simplicity Living, a new build to rent scheme they are bringing to the New Zealand market.

As build to rent is such a new concept in New Zealand, this webinar provides some great information about the reasons behind the scheme and how Simplicity Living aims to bring a product to the market that is good for everybody.

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Transcript

Stacey: 0:52

Kia Ora koutou and welcome to the property collective podcast brought to you by Relab. I'm your host Stacey Fairclough content manager here at Relab. In today's episode, I'm joined by Sam Stubbs co-founder and managing director of simplicity. One of new Zealand's KiwiSaver schemes to talk about how simplicity living. As providing new Zealanders with a new option when it comes to housing. Let's get started. Build to Rent is quite a new concept coming into New Zealand and I was only aware of it maybe like a year ago. So it's cool to see, what's actually happening, now in the market. And it's exciting to hear what's to come. So, I'll get straight into the chat today. Sam, to start us off, can you take us through the idea behind Simplicity Living and how it all came about?

Sam: 1:46

Yeah, sure. So if you think about our Kiwi Saver Manager, well, if you think about New Zealand. We're all starting to save a lot of money in Kiwi. We saved about 80 billion, altogether, and that's gonna be hundreds of billions of dollars in the future. And as a default manager, we obviously look after billions of dollars, of of people's, of our, you know, we've got 130,000 members. And you know, many of them are saving every week in KiwiSaver. So you say, what do you do with all this money? Well, you can invest it in the stock market and you can invest it in government bonds, and there's a whole lot of other things. But one of the things about simplicity is because we're a nonprofit owned by a charity, one of the things we always think about is. what can we invest in long term? Because we're gonna be here for you know, a hundred years plus. And then also, how can we also make money and do good? How can we make our members money and do good? And one of the ways you do that is you start looking around and you say, well, what's broken? Like, what needs fixing and what could be fixed with a whole lot of money over a very long period of time with a well-intentioned group of people doing it. We started out doing Kiwi Saver because we looked at the banking industry and we thought with Kiwi Saver investment funds and mortgages, basically they're all way too expensive. That the, you know, the big Aussie banks have been making far too much money. So we set to disrupt that industry by bringing in very low cost. Kiwi save our investment funds and mortgages. Now that's worked very well. And so in six years we've grown very fast. And so we have these billions of dollars to invest. And we said, well, the other problem is housing. How can we help fix the housing problem in New Zealand? And we have a lot of money to be able to do that. You know, in, in, in theory we could put billions of dollars into helping solve the issue, but was how do you solve the issue? Because if you go and spend that money building houses and then selling those houses, You know, for a fair price or at a discount to current market, that's great for the people who buy the houses, but that's just sort of giving them a win for, right? So you spend all this money you've taken all this time, very few people benefit. So we started looking overseas and thinking, well, how could we make the New Zealand housing market look more like other housing markets? and benefiting more people because the, the really weird thing about New Zealand is that we have so little long-term rental accommodation, right? So if you are in Germany about 50% of people in Germany live in long-term rented accommodation. And in many cases they do it intergenerationally. It's three or. Generations of family have been in the same house. They just rent it forever. The rent is linked to inflation or something, so it's not crazy. The landlord is very interested in you being a happy tenant long term, and you treat it like your own home. You have your pets in there, you painted the colors you want, you have the furniture, you have the white wear, all that sort of stuff. Many of them, you even choose the kitchen, you know, you and all that sort of stuff. So you, you treat it like, and you have rights as. and that provides an option to what we have in New Zealand right now, which is you either have short term rental agreements where you can get thrown at every year, and you know, landlord's trying to make as much money in the shortest period of time. Or you have to go and buy your own home, which is too expensive, right, to do that. So is there an option where we could provide. really long-term rental accommodation to New Zealanders, and that's young, new Zealanders, old New Zealanders families. Anyone who wants to do renting as an option at an affordable price with a quality product for the long term. So that was our challenge. And if it had just been simplicity, we've just got a checkbook, we've got a lot of money, but we did dunno how to build houses, right? Dunno how to rent them. We managed to, one of the nice things about being a, a charity and a nonprofit is we have a lot of volunteers. We have 69 volunteers who work for us and volunteer. Number 68 69 was Shane and Anna Brek, who owned NZ Living, a very successful home building company. They've built a lot of homes for Kianga Ora for the government. Hundreds and hundreds of them in, in Auckland as well as a whole lot of other things, over a long and very prestigious career that they've both had in building and they wanted to give back. And so they said, well, listen, why don't we do this? And it was, we were introduced by, you know, Steven Tyle. So Steven Tyle, he introduced us on a building site cuz I said to Steven, Steven, we want to help address the housing crisis. He said, come and meet Shane. And it was kind of like a match made in heaven. there's some, their ability to build homes and rent them and, and they don't wanna make any more money. They've made enough money. This is a, a massive give back to them from them and our ability to fund. So their ability to build in, our ability to fund means we can build a whole lot of builder in housing. So we had that idea about two years ago. We spent a lot of time talking together, getting it. and we will be completing our first 160 apartments in only Hung and Point England in, in Auckland. Between the, well, first, first lock come at the end of the first quarter next year, so March next year. And then we, we another site comes in about one quarter later or about four months later, and our long-term aim is to build up to 10. Homes in New Zealand all through New Zealand to provide long-term affordable rent. And that will be great for our investors because if you think about it, you know, it doesn't matter how hard up you are, the last bill you won't pay is your rent or your mortgage, right? You always pay that cuz you need a, a roof over your head. So it's very stable cash flow. It's a really good, stable, long-term investment. And for people renting, it's a fantastic experience too. they don't have to be thinking every year or every two, I've gotta change flats. Is my landlord gonna sell a house out from under me? You know, I can't paint the walls, I can't stick up the paintings I want on the walls. All those sorts of things that make renting sort of like a, kind of like a short term solution. Right. And if you think about the elderly, for example, you have to sell their homes to live. Well, they, you don't want them in a short-term renting agreement. Right? You want them in a long-term, safe, affordable place. So that was the idea for Simplicity Living. Sorry, it's a long-winded answer to a simple question, but that's how we got there. And so we are now doing it. So we have this thing at Simplicity, it's called Less Huey. More Dewey, right? So we're just getting out there and doing it. So first 160 homes will be built and then we're just gonna carry on. We already have the land built bought for the next 450. We're just gonna be rolling. Now affordable rental homes for any new Zealanders to live in. Yeah. No, that's really cool. I, I like the idea of two businesses coming together cuz otherwise they might not be, be able to be provided without that sort of collaboration, which is really cool to see.

Stacey: 8:20

And if heard you talk about the idea of a life of choices as a life of dignity can you talk through that? Cause I think that is, I believe that's quite a, a big part of around the business.

Sam: 8:32

Yeah. That, yeah. That's why Simplicity was formed. Right. So this is a give back of a whole lot of people who'd been very lucky in life and had decided to want to make a big, the biggest difference possible. So we got a blank sheet of paper and we said, well, how would we do that? And basically what we came back to was that, We wanted to run a, what we call a dignity company, and it's a company which is designed, although this is a nonprofit company, but a business which is designed to give people dignity in life because, and if you think about having a dignified life, really that's a life where you have choices, right? If you have choices in life, if you can choose where to live, what to eat, where to go on holiday, that's a life with dignity. If you think about the other way, a life without dignity is when you are told what to do every time. Told what to eat, told how much money you can have to buy food, told where to live, all those sorts of things. So they, so we said, okay, let's give people dignity, particularly dignity and retirement and the dignity of actually also owning their. First home because we're also a, a very low cost first home mortgage lender. And we said, how do we do that? We'll give people choices. Well, how do you give people choices? Well, money, right? You have more money, you have more choices in life, and if you have more choices in life, you have dignity. So the whole idea was to make New Zealanders wealthier and, and a really large scale. So that's why we moved into Kiwi Saver Investment Funds, mortgages, affordable homes. These are all very, very, industries where if you make a, if you are the disruptor, you can make a really big difference. So to give you an example, six years later with the fees that our members are saving on the Kiwi Save investment funds, it adds up to about 39 million a year in fee savings. So that's what we've done after six years, and the more we grow, the more we can save. It's about.$300 per person. If you think about the mortgages, we do mortgages that are regularly between a half and one and a half percent cheaper than the banks. That means the average person who borrows from us is saving about a hundred dollars a week in interest income. Right. That makes a big difference. That's$5,000 a year. Well, Richard we wealthier and then we also give 15% of all the fees we charge, even though they're super low fees that 15% of them go to the charity that owns. And so we've managed to give actually this next month we'll hit 5 million in charitable giving in our first six years. So that's increasing at about six and a half thousand dollars a day now that we're giving to charity. So all of these things where you can be a disruptor, where you can make money for your members and also do good and not make any money in between. So you take the profit that the finance industry would normally make and you give it back to your investors and also to some of the people who are. living in your homes or taking out mortgages or whatever. And you know, you, you can do that. And I'll give you a really good example. You've heard of Southern Cross, right? Well, that's what Southern Cross do in healthcare, right? They're the biggest private healthcare provider, but they're also a non-for-profit owned by charity. So you can do this thing in really big scale. So we're sort of the southern cross of finance. So that's why we, that's why we are doing, that's what's what Dignity means for us. A lot more money in Kiwi's hands so that they can make the choices they wanna make in life and, and have a dignified life. Yeah, awesome. Those lower interest rates will be quite enticing. especially Yeah, this week. Yeah. We have lots, lots of demand for our mortgages.

Stacey: 11:51

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So going into Simplicity living how does the investment side work? Is it available to simplicity, KiwiSaver users? Can anyone invest in them?

Sam: 12:03

Yeah. So if you are in our Kiwi Saver funds, and particularly if you're in our growth or balanced Kiwi Saver Funds and also our investment funds, we take a little bit of that and we put it into Simplicity Living. So we manage about four and a half billion dollars. So if you think about taking, you know, even one or 2% of that, that's still a lot of money. 45 1% is$45 million. So we what we do is as we grow. Make those allocations towards that, we like to have very diversified investments. So this is just one thing that those funds invest in. But because of the scale, you can actually build an in quite big scale now. So if you're a member of our Kiwi Saver Growth and Balanced funds, or our Growth and Balanced investment funds, which are just like Kiwi server funds, same investments, same fees, but you can just take your money out at any time. You know, as opposed to Kiwi server, it has to stay in there. If you're in those funds, then we, you are already investing in this. And then because we are developing the properties and building them, there's a little bit more risk than if we were just renting them. So as we get more rental, coming, and then I think we may start bringing in money from our conservative and default fund to do this as well.

Stacey: 13:16

And how does the return on investments work?

Sam: 13:20

Sure. So if you think about a rental home it's a actually a very stable long-term return on investments. So what we wanted to do was to make our members more money than if the, it was sitting in the. So most people think about property as a very short term investment. They want to build, they want to get a development margin, they wanna sell it as fast as possible and make capital gains. We don't think about it that way at all. We think about it as an income investment. So we just want to build it at a really good price and we are building. really high quality apartments and we're gonna own them for a hundred years. So we build them actually to last 200 years. So they've made out a brick and concrete, but we are building them fully completed right down to the white wear package for about$450,000 each now. And then we we want to rent them and just rent them reliably. And so we get a really reliable cash flow. And what's great about that is an in. is that not only you get some capital growth as the property market picks up if it does, but you'll still get that income. And you know, even if the financial markets, I don't know, even if we get a global financial crisis, if something drastically goes wrong, people will still pay their rent, right? Yeah. So it'll be a very, very stable cash flow. Very, very stable en environment investment. And this is very typical overseas. You know, pension funds and Kiwis have funds like ours and. Germany or France or Spain or America or Australia. Big developed markets, they typically have a lot of money in rental housing. You know, they're typically the amongst the largest landlords in the countries because they recognize that it's a really, really stable way of, of investing. Mm-hmm. so no one's really done that in New Zealand. There's an interesting thing about simplicity living is there's really not a single new idea. It's just what's worked overseas. I, I don't. Investing your money and new ideas? Well, there's a little bit of money we have in venture capital, you know, startup, hybrid startup companies, many of which will fail, but some of which will succeed magnificently. But with all of this money, when we've investing billions of dollars, we don't invest it in new ideas. We just invested in what's worked overseas and we bring it here to New Zealand, and that's exactly what we. Yeah, that's cool. It's also cool if people are interested in property investment but don't have the means to yet, or can't go fully into a property investment.

Stacey: 15:33

Yeah, that's a cool starting point. And I guess it's also for the tenants, it's also peace of mind that they, nothing will happen to. where they live or Yeah. You know, you know there's always gonna be a consistent product there for you.

Sam: 15:50

Exactly. Need it. Exactly. It's sort of a. relationship of trust though, like if you think about so many tenancy agrees, we've all flattered before, right? So often you can fall into a relationship of mistrust, right? The landlord doesn't trust you and you don't trust the landlord and you don't know whether the house is gonna be sold out from underneath you and all that sort of stuff. And it's just an unpleasant way of living, right? But if we own hundreds, thousands as we intend to own of these apartments and we run them professionally, we are really interested in you having a happy experience and staying there for the rest of your life because, You'll pay the rent and you'll be a really reliable tenant. Right. We're also interested in all of the tenants in the developments we do, being really good tenants, right? So we're very interested in making sure that we, we, you know, get rid of badly behaved. Tenants quickly because they spoil it for everybody else, right? So you wanna have a, a, you know, a a harmonious group of people living, living together. And because these are, you know, apartments, so they're three story walk-ups, or in some cases we're building a 11 story buildings as well. So you know, we have a vested interest as a long-term landlord in it being a really cool place for you to wanna live. and you're absolutely right. You've hit the nail on the head. You want to give elderly people or young people saving for their first home, or families who just want to rent for whatever reason. You wanna give them a really pleasant experience. Right? Yeah. I mean, why would you wanna do it? You don't want to, you don't wanna screw them short term for every extra dollar to make them annoyed with you, right? Yeah. Because then they start abusing the property and they don't care about, you know, it's it's horrible. So it's horrible. So, you know, if you trust people, they reward trust, and that trust can operate in both sides. And, and so that's what we are really aiming for. So that's why we will be managing the buildings ourselves, all of the Palmas ourselves. We're not gonna outsource that management to a third party company that will try and make money from that. We want the benefits of all of that to flow through to our members who are, you know, funding and build the building of these, our KiwiSaver members. And we also want the tenant to know that they are dealing with the owner of the property. Right. And so I think that will be a much more pleasant, trustworthy, harmonious relationship over time than bringing in a third party or having uncertainty about whether your home's ever gonna be sold from underneath your feet, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to know who you are, who you're dealing with as well. Yeah. Well, and we'll, we'll brand these, you know, these are gonna have simplicity branding on them. Right, right. Got right ahead. Right, right there. So they're gonna be all simplicity, but, so we've got what we call brand risk, right? Yeah. So if we create a bad experience, it damages our brand. If it's a good experience, it enhances our brand. So I think that's really important. Yeah. That we do that. So that we are so that, you know, I don't want us to be an anonymous landlord. I want us to be a really visible landlord and which people. So people know who they can go to. Yeah. Yeah. Really cool. And in terms of creating a, a really nice experience for the tenants, do you, are you gonna look into different types of amenities that are within the properties or Yeah. The properties. So, so it's really interesting, hey, that debate because if you are building a big building to sell, you put in things like a gym. A crash or communal gardens or a tennis court or a pool or something, what we call like bling. You know, you put some bling into the building, but when you actually poll people, when we asked people what do they actually want? And you give them options like, well, you can have a pool or you can have a slightly bigger apartment you can have a communal workspace or you can have a full white wear package or whatever, and you give them options and say what actually really matters to you? Mm-hmm. And it turns out that what actually matters to tenants is not what we call the bling. It's actually building a really warm, dry, safe, big as possible apartment. having big lifts, reliable lifts, having spaces where people can sort of bump into each other. It's called bump space, but not having too many things that are unused in which people are ultimately paying for right in their rent. So what we decided, so in some of our smaller developments, what we've focused on is actually a really big green space. So if you look at a typical site where we have a three story walkup apartment, One third of it will be buildings, one third of it will be car parks. People really value car parks. They really, I mean, I know we want, we like to think that we're all gonna be cycling around and, and taking the train, but actually lots of people want a car park. Yeah. And then the other third is green space. Common green space. So to, again, to give you an example, and a 60 unit development that we're building in, in Coupang and in, in Point England, in Auckland, we are putting 60 apartments. We're putting four and a half thousand trees. So it's gonna be just a green oasis, basically the way they look at it. Yeah. So that's what people want. They want bigger apartments, warmer Dr. Quieter. big green, open spaces, car parks. The other stuff is kind of nice to have, like in a, we are gonna developing a, a, a very large 300 unit development in Mount Wellington, which will have an 11 story building and several tour buildings. But we'll have a common working area above there. Oh, cool. But once again, huge amounts of green space. And, and trees and that. So to make it this sort of environmentally comfortable, that also helps offset the carbon emissions of course as well. And it's just, it's a pleasant place to live. So yeah, that's what, you know, but when you ask them, would you be prepared to pay to have a pool or a tennis court or that, no, they don't want that.

Stacey: 21:33

Yeah. Yeah. Quality over quantity.

Sam: 21:37

Well, yeah. And, you know, and the quality in the houses too. So in our apartments, for example, we have solid wooden doors. You know, we have ceilings that are one foot higher than, or sorry, a third of a meter. Sorry, I'm showing my age there, talking about feet and inches, but they're about that much taller than they need to be. The corridors are wider, the showers are bigger. Everything is just a little bit bigger and more gracious, so that you want to live there long term and it's a pleasant experience for you. Yeah, that's really critical. That little bit of difference makes a huge. in terms of the quality of the life that you have, and like a deck, they all have verandas, and you have a deck that you can sit four people around. You know, it's not one of these ones that looks good in the picture, but you can just barely stick a chair on it. Yeah. around on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and cross-ventilation and, and making them really warm. You know, we have what they call it concrete inter tenancy walls, which means they're very, very quiet. It's very good for fire ratings. But also, most importantly, they're warm, you know of the 700 homes that NZ Living have built in Auckland, they estimate that around about 5% of them have ever had their heater turned. Wow. Because they're just naturally so warm because they made a concrete and brick on the outside and you know, so it's called thermal efficiency in a building. So it's stuff like that. If you're gonna own something for a hundred years, the pool doesn't matter. Yeah. You know, if you wanna keep people a happily living for a hundred years, you wanna give them a big, warm, dry, safe apartment to be in a Awesome, yeah. Getting, getting the basics right is really important.

Stacey: 23:10

I love that. And how, how do you see the demand currently and, and moving forward for this type of product in the market?

Sam: 23:20

Yeah, it's an interesting one. A because it's a little bit of learning for New Zealanders because they haven't had someone like us saying, Hey listen, you know, you can say here. So I think that, so the initial demand when we put up our website, simplicity Living was really good. And that was just to our members, we just said to our existing, Here we are. We've got hundreds of inquiries already. We suspect that once people work out what they're getting at the price they're getting, because at the moment we're targeting a rental price, which is about 10% below the market price, right? So it's actually really good value, but also, you know, long-term tendencies, bigger apartments, all that sort of thing. So we think that once people will, will see, feel, and touch them, they'll go, well, you know, and we know that because a lot of these houses have been built for the Kiwi Build program by nz. and the feedback they get from the people who bought them is extremely positive. So you know, we'll wait and see, but hopefully in, you know, 10 years time, 20 years time, this will just be an alternative for anyone. Yeah, I just want a long-term rent and that would be, by the way, you can get out of the rent and, you know, leave any anytime you want cuz we'll always have new people who want to, you know, we, we expect that our demand will far exceed our supply for quite some time. But you know, it, it would be cool if that was another option for New Zealanders. Yeah.

Stacey: 24:38

Cool. And I guess that kind of ties into my next question as well. And how much of an impact do you see built to rent housing making in the next 10, 20 years?

Sam: 24:51

Well, in the next few years, not much because we are the only person doing it in scale at the moment. Well, I think Q Income property are doing it as well. At Sylvia Parks, there's two companies doing it, but I think in 10 or 20 years it's gonna be pretty dramatic actually. I think that New Zealand will start catching up with the rest of the world and just having it as another option, eh? Yeah, and having that rent, long-term rent, it takes some pressure off of social housing. Demand because some people will be able to afford to, who would otherwise just never be able to afford to buy a place. And would be looking at social housing or short-term renting. I think it will be an alternative to retirement villages like, you know, Elderly able people who say, I'm gonna sell the house, I'm gonna rent. And then, and then we'll, you know, we'll you know, just basically live that way cuz we choose to spend our money on other things. Mm-hmm. and also younger people who wanna save for their first home. This is an affordable place to live. They can afford to do it while they can save. Their deposit to buy. Yeah. So I think a dramatic change in 10 or 20 years, but it's gonna take, it's gonna take that long. You know, this is a really big beast to change the New Zealand housing market, but we are determined to make our members money and do good by providing this as a genuine alternative for people to live on. You know, they should have this option, eh. I mean, you should just be able to do this if you want to.

Stacey: 26:06

Yeah. Definitely. What lease agreement and lease duration for a tenant and how is market rent set for the property and when is that?

Sam: 26:15

Yeah, sure. Yeah, so we're gonna start out with pretty standard lease agreement. So I think we'll start off with a one year, cuz what, here's what we want to do. as a landlord, we wanna make sure that you're a really good tenant, right? So I think there's gotta be an opening period where we test each other out. You've gotta work out whether you wanna live there as well. Yeah. So we'll probably sign one year leases as per normal with a bond and all that stuff. The pricing we've already worked out the pricing and it works out at about, we think it's about 10% below market. So to give you an example for a one bedroom apartment in Point England that only hung, it's about$450 a week for a two bedroom, it's 550 a week. For our three bedroom, it's about 675. So around about there, there's a little bit of a range depending on the apartment, but it's in that now. We think that's about 10% below market. It's certainly when we tell anyone, they say positive things about that. and then after that year, when we get to that point where releases, we may well agree to sign multi-year agreements if you want to. That will allow you as the tenant should always be allowed to get out of that. If you move, you know, you move, you get another job, you want to do your oe, whatever you want to do, right? Should always be able to get out of it, but you should also have the comfort and security of saying, if I already want to, I can stay here for years. Right now, from our point of view, the best tenant is somebody who stays here for the rest of their lives. So we would want them to stay there and that to be an option for them to stay there forever, because that means we don't have to go through all of the work involved in finding a new tenant and moving somebody out and all that sort of stuff. Right? So, so the motivations I think are really good here. They're really well aligned. And so as long as they provide the, the, the tenant, the flexibility to get at any time they want to, and the security of knowing that if they're well behaved, right? So behavior is really important, right? Because if you end up being a bad tenant and you are disrupting the community, we will not want you to stay there, right? We will not be renewing the lease even, you know, at that point. But after a while, it becomes pretty obvious whether you are or you aren't. So, yeah, I think that's kind of, we we'll learn as we go. Yeah. But I think that's, that's, that's where we are starting out. Yeah.

Stacey: 28:24

Awesome. Yeah. And there's another question here. How do you define affordable rent?

Sam: 28:32

Yeah, it's a really good question. It's, we don't know All we know is that there is, If we can build these homes really well at a really good price, which we can, you know, I don't think there's anyone else in the country building the average size of our apartments, about 2.2 bedrooms, cuz we have a mixture of 1, 2, 3. Don't think there's anyone building an power of 2.2 bedrooms for half a million dollars. In fact, we're building them for about$450,000 totally complete. Right? Just move your furniture and we even give you a white wear package with that. We build them at a price and then we. What is a reasonable return for our members? We're not seeking to gouge attendance, that's bad business and that, that, that will give us a good, a bad reputation so we get a fair return. And that's what an affordable rent ends up being at. Right? What is a build to the lowest cost You can, and really, but we're gonna own them for a hundred years plus. So they've gotta be really high quality. We actually spend more money than we, we could build them cheaper, but we spill that, spend that little bit extra to make them last longer. And make them more livable, and then you get a fair return. So a very long-winded answer is, we don't know what an affordable rent is. We just know, know when we've hit it right? We, we will know when we've got a price, which is fair to everybody. And that's, that's really, I, you know, it kiwis have this great sense of fairness, right? If it's unfair, we work it out. So it's gotta be fair to everybody. Yeah. So that's what affordable, affordable will be, what's fair for everybody, I think.

Stacey: 30:04

Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I like that answer. That's really cool. Well, yeah, I think we will wrap it up there. But thank you so much for your time, Sam.

Sam: 30:12

No, you're welcome.

Stacey: 30:13

Yeah, it's, it's a really cool concept that I'm really more about.

Sam: 30:17

Yeah. Well I have, you know, four, four kids around about your age and I am absolutely determined that the New Zealand they grow up in will have affordable, affordable housing for them, which is not currently the case. Right? Yeah. So we're just gonna gonna get out there and do it and listen, the more we grow and the more simplicity members we have, the more of these homes we can build. So if I could ask a favor of you and your listeners, if you can just do one thing, just please just talk about us and check us out. And if you like what you see, we'd love, love to have you as a kiwi saver.

Stacey: 30:45

And that's a wrap.

30:46

Thanks to my guest today, Sam Stubbs. This was a really great chat about the benefits of bill to rent housing, and how simplicity living is bringing the product to the market. Thanks so much for tuning in. Mā te wā.